Hikers Rescued in N.H.

Wow!!!

First off,it's good to hear that these folks are doing well!

But then we have to realize that EVERYTHING costs money & somebody has to pay for it.
A simple ambulance run to the ER will get you a $325.00 bill here.
That will be paid by the person that was transported,by thier insurance company or if neither of those options are possible,by the taxpayers.

A SAR run costs SOMEBODY alot of money.
It costs alot of money to fly a helicopter for a SAR run & somebody has to pay for that.
The copters here are flown by the Sherrifs Dept. & paid for by the taxpayers.
The local LEOs & firefighters are dispatched to all SAR runs & they do get paid. It's thier job & I don't have any problem at all with them getting paid to do thier jobs.
The majority of the SAR personel here are very well trained & dedicated volunteers that pay for all of thier own gear & all of the materials used in thier training,so from that aspect,there's no cost to any taxpayer either as additional taxes or any fees for a search callout.

I'll go so far as to guarantee you that none of the SAR folks that I've met are doing SAR to get paid.
They've spent a good bit of thier own money to get the required gear & training & none of them expects to get a cent of it back.

It could be tragic if a friend or relative felt like they needed to call for a search for a friend or a loved one,but didn't because they didn't think they could pay for it.

There was a comment somewhere above that referred to negligent people putting the lives of the rescuers at risk.
Well...in my opinion,whoever it was that made THAT statement has no business doing SAR work.
The training we get pounds into our heads that our first responsibility is for our own safety,then for our team mates safety,THEN for the search subjects safety. In that order. NO exceptions. NO excuses.
If ya don't feel like going along,don't go. But don't complain about being put at risk when you have the training to prevent that.

Cliff

Well said Cliff Cool

Just to comment on the ambulance ride.
Here, if i phoned emergency & asked for an ambulance it would cost me $ 1,500 with no coverage.
Its really pricey. I have medical coverage, but have never had to call for one, yet ? LOL.
My medical may cover 50% of that, purhaps alittle more ?.
There are differant levels of coverage, the more coverage, the more money you will pay.

_________________
A Knifeless Man is a Lifeless Man
Canadian To The Core
Carry Less by Knowing More
Knowledge Weighs Nothing

Cliff N wrote:

Wow!!!

First off,it's good to hear that these folks are doing well!

But then we have to realize that EVERYTHING costs money & somebody has to pay for it.
A simple ambulance run to the ER will get you a $325.00 bill here.
That will be paid by the person that was transported,by thier insurance company or if neither of those options are possible,by the taxpayers.

A SAR run costs SOMEBODY alot of money.
It costs alot of money to fly a helicopter for a SAR run & somebody has to pay for that.
The copters here are flown by the Sherrifs Dept. & paid for by the taxpayers.
The local LEOs & firefighters are dispatched to all SAR runs & they do get paid. It's thier job & I don't have any problem at all with them getting paid to do thier jobs.
The majority of the SAR personel here are very well trained & dedicated volunteers that pay for all of thier own gear & all of the materials used in thier training,so from that aspect,there's no cost to any taxpayer either as additional taxes or any fees for a search callout.

I'll go so far as to guarantee you that none of the SAR folks that I've met are doing SAR to get paid.
They've spent a good bit of thier own money to get the required gear & training & none of them expects to get a cent of it back.

It could be tragic if a friend or relative felt like they needed to call for a search for a friend or a loved one,but didn't because they didn't think they could pay for it.

There was a comment somewhere above that referred to negligent people putting the lives of the rescuers at risk.
Well...in my opinion,whoever it was that made THAT statement has no business doing SAR work.
The training we get pounds into our heads that our first responsibility is for our own safety,then for our team mates safety,THEN for the search subjects safety. In that order. NO exceptions. NO excuses.
If ya don't feel like going along,don't go. But don't complain about being put at risk when you have the training to prevent that.

Cliff

I just don't get the fact that people feel "well we got to help these people" or that people feel "entitled" to things. I am sorry but life owes you nothing, each person is responsible for there own choices regardless of the position it puts them in. If you don't want to have to worry about paying for a SAR rescue don't go into the woods. What is so hard about that? If you don't want to pay for a ambulance get in your car, or have someone else drive you. Don't call for a ambulance because you need one and expect me to pay for it.

I just feel the government should only provide services based off of user fee's if at all...

For example roads should be paid with gas taxes (as they are), schools should be paid for by people that send there kids to school (if they can't pay there would be schools started by churches as they were done hundreds of years before the public school system), etc...

Now the reason I feel this is really simple, because anyone who says they (or others) have a right to certain services are basically saying they have a right to another person's money.

Lets take schools as a example... Now everyone will say that kids need education and I completely agree. I am not against kids being educated. BUT when you make people pay property taxes is it really there property? No it's not, they are renting the property from the government because the first time they don't pay there taxes the government is going to come and steal their house and property from them.

You bring up ambulance rides, well my grandmother was driven to the hospital because my family didn't have the money, nor want to pay the 1000's of dollars for a ambulance ride. Part of the reason ambulance rides are so expensive and all health care is so expensive covers a lot of reasons...

1) People get free services which are passed on to the paying customers
2) The government and AMA forces things like paperwork and tests, etc on the hospitals and doctors which raises the amount of people they are forced to employee which raises the rates
3) They can't turn anyone away which means even if someone that will never pay a dime, and they know can't pay a dime comes into the hospital they are forced to care for them.

How is this fair? What happens if the doctors decide there sick of it and people stop becoming doctors are you then going to FORCE people to go to school to be a doctor because the country needs more doctors?

One great example is that a women had 2 insurance policys and thought she was fully covered, another person a dishwasher had no insurance at all. They were both on the boat in NY that crashed into the habor years ago.

The guy with no insurance not only got all his health care taken care of, but also never recieved a bill. Then they gave him a free artificial limb. The women with 2 health insurance policies is stuck with thousands and thousands of dollars in bills. The reason isn't the health insurance companies fault the reason is the hospital HAS to pass on the cost of procedures it doesn't get funding for (like the un-inusured dish washer) to the people who actually have money. This is just not right in my opinion.

My whole thing is the issue of force, SAR is something that is forcefully taking money from the tax payers, and no money should EVER be taken with force no matter for what, no matter how "good" of a reason.

just look at the gun in the room as we say, and tell me is it alright to have the government point a gun at me (because if I don't pay taxes, and I don't leave my house when they try to take it, it will come to guns and force) and take my money, or someone elses money? I don't see how anyone who understands the issue that there is force being used against people to take there money can say it's alright because it's for a good cause. I don't care if it's 1 dollar and that 1 dollar will somehow feed 1 million hungry kids. ASK the person to give the money, don't point a gun at them and take it thats armed robbery.

So again it's not about the money, I donate money a lot to different charities and organizations but I get to make those choices, when I am forced to pay into something, that is wrong no matter if I would have paid into it if there wasn't force involved. Just the other day I donated some money to a kids drug recovery place THEN I went and got 4 hot coffees for the 4 young kids who were standing there in the cold trying to get some donations.

And don't even get me started on the fact that on average 70% of the money you spend on taxes goes to move the money around, where a typical charity has about 10% of it's funds go to moving the money around. The government is terribly in-efficient.

Just please go read some on LewRockwell the Mises and other Austrian Economics sites and you will see what I am talking about isn't hateful as it might come off as, but it is something that speaks of the truths of government and the money system and how it is doing less with more than people could do by making there own choices about were there money goes.

Whenever there is a large SAR operation, there is always noise in the media about the cost. You have to watch it with this. The number may include salaries already budgeted (your fire department and police), or even the value of volunteer labour (actual cost of which is nil, but value very significant). These amounts don't represent any additional cost to taxpayers.

Your police helicopters, your search and rescue a/c, your police and firefighter salaries, these things are already budgeted. They aren't part of the additional cost of a SAR operation, and they only matter for accounting purposes. Food and drink in the field, additional air resources, fuel beyond budgetary amounts, etc. are additional costs, and would not exist if not for the lost person.

The cost quoted in the media usually includes both the fixed costs and the additional costs.

Also, remember that a $200,000 rescue operation paid for by a population of, say, 5 million taxpayers costs you ... 4 cents each.

	Andrew_S wrote:
	Also, remember that a $200,000 rescue operation paid for by a population of, say, 5 million taxpayers costs you ... 4 cents each.

4 cents that is taken at the point of a gun.

ColdSoul wrote:

	Andrew_S wrote:
	Also, remember that a $200,000 rescue operation paid for by a population of, say, 5 million taxpayers costs you ... 4 cents each.

4 cents that is taken at the point of a gun.

I don't know about that ColdSoul. Around here we vote on things.

Last year:
We voted to pay half a million $ to remove snow & ice from the roads,whether we drive or not.

About the same amount to provide security for things like Oktoberfest,The Heart mini Marathon,The St. Patricks Day parade, The Taste of Cincinnati Festival,whether we go to any of those events or not.

Upkeep of our parks & Rec. Centers,whether we use them or not.

6 Public Health Clinics,whether we use them or not.

1.2 Million $ to pay for police task force operations to clean up some high crime neighborhoods,whether we live in one of them or not.

5 Million $ to pay for our public school system,whether our children attend one of them or not.

I suppose that I wouldn't mind paying some tax dollars for the occasional SAR mission too,whether I ever needed one of those or not.

Most of these improve the quality of life,whether we realize it or not.
We pay for them not at the point of a gun,but willingly because we voted for them & because we know that if we ever DO need them they'll be there.

Maybe I'm missing your point (4 cents that is taken at the point of a gun). If so...sorry about the rant.

Cliff

Cliff N wrote:

ColdSoul wrote:

	Andrew_S wrote:
	Also, remember that a $200,000 rescue operation paid for by a population of, say, 5 million taxpayers costs you ... 4 cents each.

4 cents that is taken at the point of a gun.

I don't know about that ColdSoul. Around here we vote on things.

Last year:
We voted to pay half a million $ to remove snow & ice from the roads,whether we drive or not.

About the same amount to provide security for things like Oktoberfest,The Heart mini Marathon,The St. Patricks Day parade, The Taste of Cincinnati Festival,whether we go to any of those events or not.

Upkeep of our parks & Rec. Centers,whether we use them or not.

6 Public Health Clinics,whether we use them or not.

1.2 Million $ to pay for police task force operations to clean up some high crime neighborhoods,whether we live in one of them or not.

5 Million $ to pay for our public school system,whether our children attend one of them or not.

I suppose that I wouldn't mind paying some tax dollars for the occasional SAR mission too,whether I ever needed one of those or not.

Most of these improve the quality of life,whether we realize it or not.
We pay for them not at the point of a gun,but willingly because we voted for them & because we know that if we ever DO need them they'll be there.

Maybe I'm missing your point (4 cents that is taken at the point of a gun). If so...sorry about the rant.

Cliff

No need to be sorry, I rant more than anyone I think with my long diatribes of a post...

Voting =

2 wolfs and a sheep voting for whats for dinner

2 wolfs vote sheep, 1 sheep votes grass

Sheep is for dinner

is that right? It is most certainly legal by your standards. You do know the Jews were forcefully moved from there property and had everything stolen from them and killed legally right? Legal doesn't = right.

My main question to you, that I would like a answer to.

Would you put me in jail if I refused to pay for these services that I don't use?

If so I can stop talking now because I am just wasting my time and I would much rather talk with someone who wouldn't put me in jail just for refusing to pay for services that I don't want, and never plan on using.

Here is a few quotes for you...

When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Harry Sinclair Lewis (nobel prize winner)

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin (founding father of the US)

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I remained silent;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

- Pastor Martin Niemöller

No..I wouldn't put you in jail...that would cost too much Wink

I don't consider myself either a sheep or a wolf. Just maybe a Jackass sometimes Embarassed

I just don't know how we could function in a system of government where everyone gets to pick & choose only the services they might use if the majority of people voted for them.

It's not like going shopping.

I look at it this way (could be right , could be wrong).
There are a lot of citizens out there that need some sort of help,but can't afford it.
There are a lot of services provided that I don't use much,but serve to improve the quality of life & the safety of the public. My family & I are part of that public.
I have no problem at all helping to pay for that stuff.

I also realize that there's some abuse of the system.
I'm not real happy with that,but give me a solution to it.
I certainly don't like paying for the deadbeats of the world.
It angers me every time I go to the grocery store & see folks loading up thier Lincolns with stuff that was purchased with the food stamps that I helped pay for.
But it's satisfying to know that there are some folks that really do need help buying food for thier families & the food stamps made it possible for them to do that.
But how do you go about separating the two?

I haven't needed to call the police or fire dept.for YEARS thank goodness,but I've been paying for them for over 40 years.
Never complained once about that.It's part of the system we have.
I personally feel that if we took into account all the benefits we get from the system we'd think we were getting some pretty good deals.

Could it be better...sure it could. It needs to be cleaned up to get it perfect. I just don't happen to think it's as terrible as some folks think it is.

Cliff

	Cliff N wrote:
	No..I wouldn't put you in jail...that would cost too much

Thats good to know javascript:emoticon(' Very Happy

')

Cliff N wrote:

I don't consider myself either a sheep or a wolf. Just maybe a Jackass sometimes Embarassed

I just don't know how we could function in a system of government where everyone gets to pick & choose only the services they might use if the majority of people voted for them.

It's not like going shopping.

I look at it this way (could be right , could be wrong).
There are a lot of citizens out there that need some sort of help,but can't afford it.
There are a lot of services provided that I don't use much,but serve to improve the quality of life & the safety of the public. My family & I are part of that public.
I have no problem at all helping to pay for that stuff.

I also realize that there's some abuse of the system.
I'm not real happy with that,but give me a solution to it.
I certainly don't like paying for the deadbeats of the world.
It angers me every time I go to the grocery store & see folks loading up thier Lincolns with stuff that was purchased with the food stamps that I helped pay for.
But it's satisfying to know that there are some folks that really do need help buying food for thier families & the food stamps made it possible for them to do that.
But how do you go about separating the two?

Thats a very good question. See lets imagine that there is no longer any taxes, so now you have a increase of about 25% to your check (the average American pays around 25%) you would get to do whatever you wanted with that money and you could donate it to charity X, Y, or Z (there would be more than 3 charities, in fact I am sure if the government was was reduced to a constitutional level there would be thousands). Lets say X just gives money to anyone who asks and they never have to pay it back, Y give money to anyone who asks but it's a low interest long term loan, and Z checks out the person's circumstances see's if they are actually in need, and then also only gives them a limited amount of time unless they can prove that they are just unable to help themselves.

You could then choose which charity to give your money to and this would allow you to help the people in the manner you wished to help people.

Cliff N wrote:

I haven't needed to call the police or fire dept.for YEARS thank goodness,but I've been paying for them for over 40 years.
Never complained once about that.It's part of the system we have.
I personally feel that if we took into account all the benefits we get from the system we'd think we were getting some pretty good deals.

Could it be better...sure it could. It needs to be cleaned up to get it perfect. I just don't happen to think it's as terrible as some folks think it is.

Cliff

Well the majority of the fire departments in the entire US are volunteer, I can't say the same for police but I would much rather go to a volunteer police because the police today have to much power that they can use arbitrarily. There is the BART shooting where a man was killed for no reason by a BART cop, there is the "no knock raids" where they bust in peoples houses without identifying themselves, etc, etc. All this wouldn't be so bad if the officers and the system were held accountable but almost every single time a officer goes over the line of "common sense" the police department finds them "not at fault" or "following the departments guidelines". But of course they do, why wouldn't they? If they rule that he messed up they open themselves to possible lawsuit! I have seen personal examples of this when I was a peace officer for 6 years, while it was only 1 time it made me sick and was part of the reason I changed and also quit my job. They refused to accept my report because I wasn't there for the whole incident, they also forced 2 officers to change there reports to reflect a more positive outlook on the incident, I also heard (can't confirm) a supervisor helped a officer with there report to make them un-liable legally.

The police are taught all these little tricks on how to word things so we don't get in trouble and if it was a volunteer or privately funded police force then people would be more liable for there actions. I was taught you could hit someone and then say "I was telling them to stop and extended my arm forward to stop them with my hand in a fist, and if they ask why you used a fist you say because you don't want to get your fingers pulled, or hurt". For example if you think someone robbed someone down the street you better be darn sure if your right (i.e. like a picture, video that exactly matches the person) instead of just "Grabbing" the guy and throwing them down to the ground with a gun pointed at there head (this exact situation happened to my cousin when he had done nothing wrong).

And we wouldn't be getting peoples houses raided or businesses raided over things were nobody is being harmed (like the Dr's office that was raided and a swat team member "accidentally" shot the Dr in the head while he was handcuffed and sitting on the ground in front of him).

No for rapes, murders, etc, etc. people who actually committed acts against another person that is more understandable to have to use force but for a home poker game, or someone smoking a little marijuana at there home it's just ridiculous to use guns against someone who never harmed a soul.

Now if we could make it so the police would stop being so hostile and would not go after anyone for any crimes that didn't have a actual real life person that was harmed and not "the state is the victim" so that the drug war stopped, no more speeding tickets, etc, etc. I could even get behind state funded police, and I am sure enough people would sign up to make it voluntary or a indirect tax which means a tax based off something people do not have to have (say like police stories or books sold to the public, etc) so people who want to support the police can send in money, or also buy the books of whatever the police "Sale".

Now federal taxes have zero ground to stand on because of the fact that the supreme court ruled just over a 100 years ago that the government can't "direct tax" it's people, which means they can't tax your work or your income they can only "in-direct tax" which means tax beer, tea, etc. But then when the 14th amendment came around that supposedly gave the federal government the power to tax income the supreme court rules it "provided no new rights of taxation" yet they then allowed the Fed Income Tax to continue even though they had overruled one just a few years previously. So the system isn't going to protect us, it's going to continue to grow and protect itself. In fact there is a Appellate court document where a judge for one of the district courts (the 2nd highest courts in the land to the US supreme court) said that in fact the 14th amendment was never fully ratified by the states (and thus did not take effect) that due to the US Supreme court ruling that it was in effect, it is. So it's not just me but also a lot of people who know more than I do.

My final comment on the police is that they are legally under "No obligation" to come to your home if you call them. If someone was busting into your front door and getting ready to kill you if they don't show up you can't sue them. The reason being is there are there for the protection of the public as a whole not for a single individual thus they don't have to come when called. So really everyone needs to be ready to protect themselves, and should learn how to do so, etc.

Maybe President Obama can help us out with some of that stuff Rolling Eyes

.

I need to get some coffee now...you made my brain hurt Shocked

.

Cliff

	Cliff N wrote:
	Maybe President Obama can help us out with some of that stuff . I need to get some coffee now...you made my brain hurt . Cliff

Sorry Cliff Shocked

I do not mean to hurt anyone's feelings, or cause anyone any discomfort it is just freedom and liberty something I am very passionate about. Shoot I quit my job which gave me a ton of money and allowed me to live very comfortably buying whatever I wanted and then some, moved 3,400+ miles to do what I can to make the government smaller in the best way I knew how and to live in a more "free state". Now I can't even seem to find a job Sad

Hope your head feels better.

No problem partner...I'm all better now. No hurt feelings at all.
It's cool that we can discuss these things.

Cliff

Good discussion, guys. Those hikers don't know what they started! Surprised

_________________

"The monkeys are throwing stuff at me again."
-Survivorman in Costa Rica

" Why You Little " !! thats for those Hikers as well. Wink

_________________
A Knifeless Man is a Lifeless Man
Canadian To The Core
Carry Less by Knowing More
Knowledge Weighs Nothing