Scouts Not Learning "Right" Survival?

Maybe there are some current scouts out there who can address this better for me. As most of you know I was "removed" from scouts for some minor acts when I was younger. ( Embarassed

,

) But here recently I decided to go back to the scouts as a kind of helper for the different troops in the area. Last weekend there was a camp out planned. Unfortunatly I couldn't get off work to attend the camp out, but before hand survival gear was looked over, and disscussed. I thought it may help if I brought my BOB pack in, since it's a 72 hour kit I thought it would help get the group thinking in the right frame of mind. While talking to the leaders it was very clear that the majority of them couldn't survive with out their fancy cars, cell phones and credit cards. So we decided I would more of less take control of the training block. The troop ranged from ages 12- +/- 15 plenty old enough to have fun with and old enough to teach them some pretty cool and fun skills I thought. First off we gave them a crash course in first aid. Since they had already had a class like that, it was more of a what if class and how one could improvise needed gear. Up next we did a how to get water. Again, the solar still was used and everyone had a small sip of water by the end of the day. The fire went really smooth as most of the scouts had some kind of flint set up, and atleast a lighter or matches, so we planned to make some char cloth later. But then the shelter and food area went to the warm spot. I tried to tell them that if they were ever really lost, to forget about "being wrong." In other words don't worry about the private property signs, and that just about everything was fair game. I kept stating the "be judged by 12 rather than carried by 6" saying to help get my point across. Thats when the parents stepped in. They all seemed to feel, that at no time should that be taken to heart. I know the scout program says to preserve the enviroment, and everything involved with in it, but they are actually saying to carry enough water and food so that one would not need to "take anything from the wild" while trying to survive. I thought maybe they ment for the camp out, but they are dead set that anyone should carry everything with them so they don't have to remove anything from nature. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with that too much for a real survival situation. They also did not want any of the scouts using knives of any sort. I talked with one of the scouts through IM tonight about how the camp out went and was shocked that they didn't even have a fire! When I was up there a few weeks ago it was mighty cold at night. Like getting down into the low 20s at night. They were in tents, they had to have totally froze out there with their warm weather camping gear. The scout I talked to said he had two sleeping bags, and a couple blankets and was still cold, that doesn't sound like much fun to me!

Is this the normal scout survival training they teach? One of the parents even told the troop "it's not like this is really needed, this is more of a yester year kind of thing." Shocked

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Where the Eagles fly, and the Caribou lie is where I want to be, the Wolf waits there for me.....
-Les Stroud

My brother was in scouts, i never went. It sounds like the scouts are in fantasy land or something ?.
Not carrying a knife ???! no fire !?? none of that makes sence. And to tell them always ! carry what you need ? is
insane. So here they are scouts, and one day a boy goes for a hike sprains his ankle way out there & has no clue what to do. Doesn't carry a knife, cant make a fire to signal. Confused

i understand to preserve nature, im big on that. But i would take & do what ever is needed to survive, if that means trespassing & cutting some small trees down & makeing fire, im doing it ! .. and in that situation those kids should be told to do the same. In a do or die situation only.
Scouts dont sound like the scouts anymore from what you have told me Azarcher.
Ive read old scout books & it shows all those cool things on making fire, and shelter & to improvise when needed.
Thats to bad that some kids today are being showen the wrong things to do while in the woods. Or should i say there
" not " being shown the right ! things to do.

_________________
A Knifeless Man is a Lifeless Man
Canadian To The Core
We are Known By The Tracks we Leave Behind
Carry Less by Knowing More
Knowledge Weighs Nothing

ya thats crazy i totally agree with you guys.
my nephew is in beavers so when he gets to scouts i will let you know how scouts are in northern alberta Smile

i hope they are not like how you just described cuz ill be pi$$ed lol

Same experience with my step-sons in scouting... at the risk of the generalizing it seems like there is a general "political correctness" policy amongst the parents/leaders/whomever that knives at scouting events (especially if in a school or church) are strictly NO-NO. In all fairness this may be because of recent "zero-tolerances" policies toward allowing any edged weapons inside a public building. But on a CAMPOUT??!! No knives? That's absolutely ludicrous, and frankly irresponsible.

As for fire on campouts... although I agree with a "leave no sign" policy, that's carrying it a bit too far not to allow a firepit as long as it's in safe, designated or permitted areas. We always had fires, and were very careful to extinguish them properly and essentially "leave no sign" by the time we were done cleaning camp. One of my first lessons as a responsible scout.

Also, I do agree that in a true survival situation, trespassing onto private land is O.K. in my opinion... either to get where you need to go, for shelter, etc. I've only known a handful of old codgers that would get bothered by a trespasser if that scout was lost and in a survival predicament.

My own opinion is that 2 basic factors are working nowadays, and it's all different from the scouts of old:

1. Political Correctness/ including Environmental Awareness ... we've got our kids so hyped up and scared about the outdoors that they're so afraid they'll permanently damage Mother Nature, ecosystem, etc... that I'm honestly surprised they ever leave their troop lodge! I think Awareness is good, but I think it's gone overboard.

2. With all due respect to the parents, most of them probably wouldn't know an oak from a birch, and as mentioned before are living in a cell-phone and I-Pod world now. "Why would my son need a knife? That's dangerous! And why would he ever need to learn to start a fire? Then he'd be an arsonist! OH NO!!!"

Anyway, I think this is part of the disintegration of the old scouts, into the rebirth of a gentler, kinder, much-less-outdoors new "community youth aide"... the New Scouts. Rolling Eyes

My.02 worth.

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"Asinus sæculæ maximus."

	NorthernHunter wrote:
	ya thats crazy i totally agree with you guys. my nephew is in beavers so when he gets to scouts i will let you know how scouts are in northern alberta i hope they are not like how you just described cuz ill be pi$$ed lol

Well, I think it would be safe to say that alberta scouts are probably shown a lot more survival stuff than the US scouts. Very Happy

I tried to tell the parents that no one plans on getting lost. They go out for a short day hike, a small storm comes in and they get tured around. Or they are going to Thanksgiving out of state, and take a wrong turn on the way back home. Or even just trying to get out of the car to try to find the trail during a snow storm, I know I've lost my nice orange truck only a few yards away. Embarassed

I mean what I really wanted to do was go for a true SHTF, collapse of society roaming groups of the living dead type senerio, but settled for a more common lesson block. Wink

Maybe it was just too much geared towards the outdoors. True, that most of us spend a lot more time in the concrete jungle than the woods, so maybe there was a feeling that the chances were so slim they wouldn't be needed. Maybe a more urban survival tie in would have been better. I know a lot of my gear is more urban than wilderness, but a lot of it ties in with backcountry type survival too.

Plain and simple there should have been more survivorman video nights. Cool

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Where the Eagles fly, and the Caribou lie is where I want to be, the Wolf waits there for me.....
-Les Stroud

I agree with everything said so far. Smile

From my experience with a few Boy Scouts, they're nothing but a bunch of pansies who call themselves woodsmen. All of 'em are city slickers and the dads couldn't tell a walnut from a horse turd. Rolling Eyes

I know that's a bit harsh, but they don't get the big picture. Confused

You guys are totally right. Smile

My 2 cents. Cool

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Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. - Prov. 27:17

Are " we " truely becoming extinct ?... meaning Bushcraft/Survivalist people.
In 30 years is there going to be; no camping, anywhere ! no fires, anywhere Confused

. I really dont want to be around for those days i'll tell ya. But what Dorby said to the future of say, Scouts. They are teaching a whole differant way of being out doors, but they are losing all the real truly needed skills to able to deal with the outdoors on your own or in a situation that calls for Bushcraft knowledge. Im thankful for all the people that still teach speacial skills in survival & bushcraft. Les Stroud, Ron Woods, Ray Mears, Lofty Wiseman & countless other schools & people that still hang onto these skills. Im starting to feel like a tribe thats slowly becoming extinct Confused

Those will be sad days when all you can do is watch shows about survival & bushcraft but never be able to practice them. Except in your back yard.
Man i need a Beer now Shocked

_________________
A Knifeless Man is a Lifeless Man
Canadian To The Core
We are Known By The Tracks we Leave Behind
Carry Less by Knowing More
Knowledge Weighs Nothing

I am was in the Scouting organization for 3 years and I've been trying to set up some camps where we actually learn something useful like lighting fires without matches and lighters. So far they aren't buying it but I convinced them that we could go to the rockies and thats a start at least. I have been giving suggestions like "lets go to Alaska or the Yukon." They say, wow, and why so far? I then proceed to tell them that in the Yukon you can just backpack in and camp where ever you want and it is a lot more flexible when dealing with fires than in BC cause of forest fires. There is only one other Venturer now (venturer is just older scouts) who is willing to learn survival skills. I really don't like the fact that we go to these camps where all we do is sit around in a provincial campground and twiddle our thumbs because the parents won't let us out into a forest or anything remotely close to a place where we could learn something useful. But anyway, that's my blurb for the day Very Happy

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It's not climbing the mountain to get to the top; it's climbing the mountain to enjoy the climb.

From my experiences I agree with Azarcher about the scouts.

I believe as Drummer that we truly are becoming extinct.

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SURVIVAL..........it's all in your head

	tfisher wrote:
	From my experiences I agree with Azarcher about the scouts. I believe as Drummer that we truly are becoming extinct.

Sadly, you are right.

We need more people like the ones Dave mentioned.

So all you outdoor enthusiasts out there, pass it on!

_________________
Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. - Prov. 27:17

We should get something going ... called { International Survivalist Club } Cool

Get a web site up & have ALL related forums & clubs in 1 site Smile

....

_________________
A Knifeless Man is a Lifeless Man
Canadian To The Core
We are Known By The Tracks we Leave Behind
Carry Less by Knowing More
Knowledge Weighs Nothing

Go for it. Smile

I'm sure everybody here would be behind you. Cool

_________________
Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. - Prov. 27:17

	tfisher wrote:
	From my experiences I agree with Azarcher about the scouts. I believe as Drummer that we truly are becoming extinct.

We are truly a dying breed, it's sad, but we still have a chance, I mean look at us....we are people who would have never met or known of each others' existence probably, but thanks to this forum, we are joining together and have a much strong voice. We have influence all over North America and then some! If the day comes that campfires are outlawed and camping is frowned upon to "preserve nature." That is the day I end my life in society and walk into the woods. In my opinion, life without the wilderness is not life at all

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We only have one Earth, take care of her and she will take care of you. ~ probably someone else

	Drummer Dave wrote:
	We should get something going ... called { International Survivalist Club } Get a web site up & have ALL related forums & clubs in 1 site ....

I'd be for it! Heck yea! Very Happy

_________________
"Asinus sæculæ maximus."

Brian wrote:

	tfisher wrote:
	From my experiences I agree with Azarcher about the scouts. I believe as Drummer that we truly are becoming extinct.

We are truly a dying breed, it's sad, but we still have a chance, I mean look at us....we are people who would have never met or known of each others' existence probably, but thanks to this forum, we are joining together and have a much strong voice. We have influence all over North America and then some! If the day comes that campfires are outlawed and camping is frowned upon to "preserve nature." That is the day I end my life in society and walk into the woods. In my opinion, life without the wilderness is not life at all

>>>> I agree with you Brain 1000 % !! ...

_________________
A Knifeless Man is a Lifeless Man
Canadian To The Core
We are Known By The Tracks we Leave Behind
Carry Less by Knowing More
Knowledge Weighs Nothing

Dobry wrote:

	Drummer Dave wrote:
	We should get something going ... called { International Survivalist Club } Get a web site up & have ALL related forums & clubs in 1 site ....

I'd be for it! Heck yea! Very Happy

ya

{ Are you my huckle berry } lol. Cool Avatar.

_________________
A Knifeless Man is a Lifeless Man
Canadian To The Core
We are Known By The Tracks we Leave Behind
Carry Less by Knowing More
Knowledge Weighs Nothing

I completely agree! Our local scout groups arnt too bad but they STILL don't learn $***. I will never get involved in the scouts though. I completely agree with Brian on what he said! That is the best post I have read in awhile!

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~~~Watcher Of The Woods~~~
"Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can"~John Wesley

Yep, Brian. Well-said.

_________________
"Asinus sæculæ maximus."

Scounts is anything but scouts these days,waterd down I think.

We should all get together to start our own scouts lol.

Survival is not only about surviving, for me its a way of life. That may sound weird to you but here is my experiance. Ever since I have gotten into this I have become more effiecent, I forget things less, I prepare more and I am WAY more organized. I also know my priorities better as well as how to act in a stressful situation. Teaching people survival will teach you everything I just explained, but if it is taught wrong, or in this case not to the degree needed to build enough confidence in yourself, then you got a problem.

Survival isnt about carrying axes and blankets in your car, its learning how to live life better.

just my thoughts

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"There dosen't look like there's much shelter over in those mountains, but that's the only choice I got right now, this is gonna be a long week" - Les Stroud Arctic

I think troopermax hit on something here, it is a wilderness/outdoor "way of life" not just survival or primative skills.

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SURVIVAL..........it's all in your head